Q: It is said that you spotted Sushilkumar Shinde and brought him into politics. Do you remember those days and your initial meetings? What extraordinary factors in Shinde impressed you that you chose him over the others?

 

After my college days were over in Pune, Yashwantraoji asked me to contest the 1967 assembly election from Baramati. I was already working for the Congress party. I came to Mumbai and started staying in Tilak Bhavan, the MPCC headquarters. I used to call on Yashwantraoji time and again for guidance. Seeing my dedication, he entrusted me with the responsibility of bringing new blood into the party fold. During my tours of various parts of the state, I used to look for such promising young men and women who could be attracted to Congress. Sushilkumar Shinde, Govindrao Adik, Mulchand Gothi, Dhairyasheelrao Pawar, Vlnayakrao Patil and Eknath Salve were some of them. I had a special admiration for Sushilkumar Shinde since he had come up in life on his own. Yashwantraoji had told me that such youngsters could be groomed and given help to chart a career in politics. One day, I told Sushilkumar Shinde to resign his police job and join mainstream politics. I promised him that we would make efforts to get him a Congress nomination for the assembly elections (in 1972). He was recently married, had a daughter and was hesitant to take the plunge in view of the family responsibility.

 

Q: You were instrumental in installing Shinde as a force to reckon with. He told me that he is grateful to you because you secured for him a nomination for a seat in the Maharashtra Assembly and then ministership for him. How did this happen?

 

Eventually, Shinde resigned and started working for the Congress. I immediately sensed his dedication to work, study and readiness to undertake hardships. I had been appointed the president of the Maharashtra chapter of the Congress Forum for Socialist Action at the time. This work needed extensive touring of the state. I appointed Sushilkumar Shinde a secretary of the Forum. I started taking him along on my tours. He was seeing Maharashtra through a new perspective. I noticed that he used to observe keenly how I handled different situations and people. Bugles for the general election could be heard clearly at the time. I was happy that Shinde was sincerely trying to learn.

 

Amidst such hustle and bustle, the first session of the Forum was held in Pune's Congress House. A resolution about strengthening the hands of the Prime Minister was to be moved. I insisted that Sushilkumar Shinde do it. He was reluctant since stage fright had taken possession of him. Finally, I goaded him to stand. I still remember that moment. When Shinde somehow managed to stand up, he was shaking like a leaf. He mumbled that the draft resolution had been circulated and all should support it. He sat down so abruptly that everybody was at a loss for a moment to realise what had happened. However, I consoled him so that he did not lose heart. To boost his morale, I used to take him to Yashwantraoji.

 

Q: It must have been a shock for both Shinde and you that he did not get the Congress nomination for the assembly elections. How did you overcome this?

 

When the assembly elections were announced, we in Maharashtra Congress decided to give a fair opportunity to the young blood. It was customary in those days that the high command rarely made any changes in the list sent by a Pradesh Congress Committee. In Maharashtra, due to Yashwantrao, almost every recommendation used to be unanimous. We recommended the names of Sushilkumar Shinde, Adik, Prabha Rau, Vinayakrao Patil and Shivraj Patil, among others. Delhi made a few changes, dropping Shinde, Rau and Govindrao from the list. However, we argued our case forcefully and Adik and Rau were given nominations. But Sushilkumar Shinde's name was cut out. I was quite shaken since Shinde had resigned his cushy police job at my behest. We renewed our efforts to include his name and put up our case before Chandrashekhar, the most prominent Young Turk, who had direct access to Indiraji. He promised to intercede since a young Dalit 's future was at stake.

 

In the parliamentary board, Chandrashekhar vehemently argued for Shinde but was not successful. He later told me that Babu Jagiivan Ram had insisted on the candidature of former MP Tayappa Hari Sonawane, who was a disciple of Babuji. He remained firm that Sonawane should be nominated from the Karmala (SC) constituency in Solapur district. Our recommendation for Shinde was from the same constituency. Indiraji told Chandrashekhar that Babuji was in no mood to listen and that she wouldn't overrule him.

 

Chandrashekhar told me, "Sorry, I could not help that promising Dalit fellow you had recommended."

 

As it became clear that Sushilkumar Shinde was not going to contest the 1972 election, my elation at getting many other nominations cleared, vanished. I did not know how to face Shinde. I knew that he would be waiting at Mumbai airport for the list of candidates like many other workers. On the flight to Mumbai, I could not think of anything else. In fact, my eyes were filled with tears when I alighted from the plane and saw an eager Shinde in the crowd. Still trying to control my emotions, I broke the bad news to him. His reaction was really touching.

 

Sushilkumar said, "Don't feel so bad. We will keep on working." He was trying to perk up my morale rather than me consoling him for the situation in which he had landed.

 

After the election results were announced, V.P. Naik formed his third government in which I was made a minister of state for home.

 

Sushilkumar Shinde had donned his lawyer's coat and been practising in courts in Mumbai. Very soon, he made a name for himself on the criminal side. Occasionally, he used to appear before me since I used to hear appeals under the powers Naik had transferred to me. Shinde was immersed in his activities and me in mine. Of course, he remained in touch and continued to work for the Forum and the party. In 1974, Sonawane died and a byelection from Karmala was announced. This time, we were prepared. We prevailed upon the Pradesh Congress to clear Shinde's name. I insisted to Chandrashekhar that Shinde's claim must be conceded. Expectedly, his candidature was endorsed by the high command.

 

The first election contested by Shinde turned out to be an experience for all of us. At the time of filing of the nomination, he candidly told us that he had no resources. So we organised for Rs. 15,000 and handed over the amount to veteran Congress leader Namdeorao Jagtap, assigning him the task of running Sushilkumar Shinde's campaign. A staunch follower of Y. B. Chavan, Namdeorao reassured us that the byelection was as good as won by Shinde.

 

A novice in politics, Shinde did not know how to wave to the crowds while going around in a jeep. He needed to be told to fold his hands in namaste to the cheering supporters. He was taught to wear a Gandhi cap while on a campaign tour. He won the by-election with a comfortable margin. I should narrate an incident that took place after the election was over. It is a telling commentary on the Congress culture of those days. Jagtap sent the Pradesh Congress a detailed account of expenditure and returned Rs.4500 since the total expenses were Rs. 10,500 out of we had given him.

 

Q: Please describe his early days as an MLA and as a minister of state.

 

Sushilkumar Shinde entered the legislative assembly and found the atmosphere quite interesting. Besides speaking in the House, he started attending various official meetings, going on tours and imbibing the art of working of the government. In his spare time, he would read the rules and regulations of the house. When Naik decided to fill up certain vacancies of ministers of state, I proposed that Sushilkumar Shinde should be given an opportunity. But Shinde was not too eager. He pleaded that he should be given more time to learn. I said nothing doing. When Shinde still appeared to have some reservation, I asked our senior colleague Prabhakar Kunte to speak to him.

 

"Being in the government is the best medium to serve the people. This is a golden opportunity. Do not spurn it," Kunte and I convinced him. Finally, he acquiesced. We urged Yashawantraoji to have a word with Naik. He agreed and Shinde was sworn in. As a new minister, Shinde was always willing to learn. He used to watch the proceedings carefully. We sensed that a parliamentarian was in the making. He started picking up and succeeded.

 

Q: What was the atmosphere like at the time of installation of the Progressive Democratic Front (PDF) government in Maharashtra? How significant did you find Shinde's role?

 

In 1978, the coalition government headed by Vasantdada Patil started tottering since Congress (I) leader and deputy chief minister Nasikrao Tirpude constantly attacked our party and Yashwantraoji. It became unbearable and top leaders of our party decided to pull down the government. Our MP Abasaheb (A.G.) Kulkarni and senior leader Kisan Veer took the lead. Abasaheb had a word with Chandrashekhar, who was Janata Party president. He convinced an unwilling Prime Minister Morarji Desai and finally, it was decided that a multi-party government would be formed.

 

I was asked to lead it. Mentally, I was not prepared to go along but finally was left with no choice.

 

After coming back to Mumbai. I was asked how many ministers would walk out of the Dada government along with me. I replied that cabinet minister Sunderrao Solunke and ministers of state Sushilkumar Shinde and Datta Meghe would follow. When we announced our resignations, there was political upheaval in the state. A letter was sent to Governor Sadik Ali. He allowed me to form the Progressive Democratic Front (PDF) government in which the Janata Party, the Peasants and Workers Party and some smaller outfits joined in. The Congress faction that was created by me was named Congress (S). I upgraded Shinde and Meghe to the cabinet. One of the portfolios handled by Shinde was labour.

 

Labour was a tricky charge since many of the senior ministers in my government were trade union leaders and insistent upon certain policy matters. One of their demands was that the Bombay Industrial Relations (BIR) Act should be scrapped. Had this demand been conceded, the BEST undertaking in Mumbai and the textile mills could have closed down. In fact, industrial peace would be threatened. The state could not afford this. I told Sushilkumar Shinde that somehow, we would have to keep the matter pending. He understood what was in my mind and kept the trade unions and their leaders entangled in such protracted discussions that they lost all hope and started complaining to me, "This minister only laughs. But he does not deliver." I was aware of what had been happening and kept up the charade. We managed to avert any changes in the BIR Act. It was really remarkable the way he handled the matter without creating any threat to the stability of my government.

 

Q: What were your feelings when Shinde decided to rejoin the Congress party?

 

There was rethinking about rejoining the Congress among workers and leaders of various parties, including my Congress (S), after Indiraji dismissed my government in 1980. Those who left very early included S.B. Chavan. Sushilkumar Shinde made an impassioned speech somewhere and declared that he would not leave Yashwantrao and me till the end. However, after about 15 days, he called me up and indicated his decision to join Indiraji. I wished him well and said our personal relations would not be affected by this decision. I must say to his credit that Shinde never crossed the borderline nor spoke ill of me. Of course, we had political differences which were expressed according to the needs of the situation, but that did not intrude upon our personal relationship. Not only our family members but even the third-generation additions in both our families have been meeting regularly on all important occasions. As far as Shinde is concerned, he has maintained decorum unfailingly.

 

Q: Did your relationship with Sushilkumar Shinde and others change after your own homecoming?

 

After Indiraji's assassination, I met Rajiv Gandhi. Many subjects were discussed, including my return to Congress. "Let us forget the past," the Prime Minister said. That was the beginning of the process of my returning to the Congress fold. I returned to the Congress party in 1986 and to the government as chief minister in 1988. I inducted Sushilkumar Shinde into my team. Very soon, political instability started plaguing the Centre. A situation arose in which Chandrashekhar became the Prime Minister with the Congress party support. I had a hand in the arrangement. Somehow, an uneasiness developed between Rajivji and me. It manifested when four ministers — Vilasrao Deshmukh, Ramrao Adik, Javed Khan and Surupsingh Naik — issued a statement against me. Sushilkumar Shinde was the MPCC president at the time. The crisis went on deepening. In between was the marriage of my daughter, Supriya. I had invited many VVIPs for the ceremony held at Baramati. Hence I could not remain in Mumbai for some days. Finally, I was asked to meet Rajivji in Delhi. He asked me what had been happening. I told him that it was at his behest.

 

Expressing surprise, Rajivji said, "I asked them to shake, not uproot."

 

A compromise was hammered out through M.L. Fotedar, the Prime Minister's emissary. I said I would allow all the ministers to continue, including Shinde, but he must not remain MPCC president. The matter went to Rajivji. He wanted to know the reason for my demand. I made it clear that a minister could err but there should not be an impression that the rebellion against me had been blessed by the party. Rajivji appreciated the logic and my tenure continued.

 

It needs to be recorded at this juncture that Sushilkumar Shinde came to me and told me that he would abide by my decision without any complaint. "I shall continue if you wish, otherwise I'll go out," he said. I asked him to remain in my cabinet.

 

Q: Is it true that you played an active role in creating a niche for Shinde at the Centre?

 

After P.V. Narasimha Rao became the Congress president and Prime Minister, I went to Delhi to join his team as defence minister. Rao was looking for a capable general secretary from the backward classes. Sushilkumar Shinde's name came up. I immediately endorsed it. Shinde came to Delhi and began working in earnest. Soon, he earned the confidence of the Prime Minister. But I wanted him to lead the state. I mentioned this to Rao. When Sudhakarrao Naik was removed, I pushed the name of Sushilkumar Shinde. But the situation in Mumbai was so grim (following the bomb blasts in March 1993) that Rao compelled me to return to Maharashtra. Though I had come back for a brief period, circumstances developed in such a manner that it became impossible for me to go back to Delhi. Sushilkumar Shinde had lost an opportunity.

 

Q: How would you sum up your relationship with Shinde after four decades?

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Sushilkumar Shinde picks up good habits from different people. From Yashwantrao, he learnt to maintain excellent personal relations.

 

He has a special place in my heart since he overcame the limitations imposed upon him by the community he belongs to. It is really difficult for such people to shine. His decision to part ways with me was not especially hurting since this happens in politics all the time. What has impressed me is his magnanimity in maintaining decorum despite political differences.

 

I extend my best wishes to him and hope that whatever power he possesses should be utilised for uplifting people who are less fortunate than others.